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18 comments:
Those points you suggested already are present in most fundamental denominations and groups.
Do you think the "Baptistification" of Evangelicalism is a catalyst for something like this?
I'm thinking John Piper funky Calvinist-like theology here...
General initial thoughts:
For those more Americanized than Christianized the reaction to Islam is going to be/is sick. Total fire with fire sort of stuff.
For those more Christianized than Americanized the reaction to Islam is going to be/is positive. Actually having a "fire" sort of stuff.
"Baptistification" and "Islamification" of American Evangelicals appears to be the same thing! As I read your points (expecially #4 and following) I thought I was reading a "Baptist" treatise. Interesting.
I think #5 is something you can already see in American Evangelicalism, with some people equating political a particular political party and its agenda with God's will and His agenda.
I had the exact same thought as Tim Hawk. I had to keep scrolling back up to see if you were talking about Muslims or Southern Baptists. I'm sure that was purely unintentional, though, right?
Wait...so you are saying Baptists are Christians?
Writing this sort of stuff is going to get you in trouble some day... keep writing it anyway! Bet you've heard that line before!
The churches associated with the Southern Baptist Convention have been moving in this direction for years. Likewise, many of the community churces.
You aren't trying to annoy Republicans as well as Baptists, are you? Ha!
I am reading a book on Martin Niemoller, decorated WWI veteran, and enthusiastic supporter of Hitler and the German Christian Movement in the early 30's, later a key figure in the Confessing Church, Hitlers 'personal prisoner' and a pacifist after the war. Only when Hitler was seen for what he really was did Niemoller abandon his German/Christian ideas. Today, of course, both political parties are trying hard to convince us that their brand of politics is highly compatible with Christian faith.
I would like a little more follow up on the abandonment of trinitarian theology, as that is so important to Wesleyans. And, assuming everything you say is right on, what is the corrective, or how might it be implemented?
One word, Coach.
Trinity.
It's kind of a drag that our distinguishing doctrine is so daggone hard to explain.
Maybe this is why Islam spreads like wildfire. It's simple.
Tonight I just finished teaching a discipleship course on Means of Grace. (BTW, you, Coach, were the first to introduce me to that concept at IWU. :) )
I've been thinking a lot about what makes Means of Grace "Christian." It's entirely possible to fast, pray, meditate, give... in "non-Christian" or "a-Christian" ways. Just because someone fasts for a day doesn't make them more "Christian." Plenty of Muslims, Buddists, Native American spiritualists, etc. do these same acts, but with different intents.
How explicitly "Christian" are we when we practice MOG? What do the Trinitarian Persons actually mean to us when we engage in these acts?
On the side, a pet peeve is how meditation is thought to be "Eastern." I'd really love to see Christians reclaim meditation as a Christian practice.
Christy - Christianity itself is eastern, we need to remeber that, but I know what you mean
"Ours is the cause of human dignity; freedom guided by conscience and guarded by peace. This ideal of America is the hope of all mankind. That hope drew millions to this harbor. That hope still lights our way. And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness will not overcome it."
Pres. Bush, 9/11/02
So eloquent... where'd he get those lines???
CHRISTY.... I've been pondering the same thing on MOG... and it deserves a more serious treatment in a full column and responses sometimes... the one I have outlined though still isn't coming together but is in the same corner as your comment... recognizing that the MOG may be human channels of grace built into humanity that God uses, but I'm not fully clear on this yet...maybe I need to pull the trigger on it and run it up the flagpole...
This sounds disturbingly enough like John Piper... and Grudem...
Hahaha... I had a talk with a student recently, and she was trumpeting most of what you already said. She even went so far as to tell me, matter-of-factly, that I was deceived. I've spent time thinking about that... I don't want to be deceived. :/ She didn't talk about "women's place," although I've had some discouraging conversations with other students about that recently.
Most of the students would point to history- especially as far as outlawing sin and such. Not only US history (although they love reminding me that all the founding fathers were "Christians"- read deists), but also the history of the Israelite people. You know, stoning homosexual offenders and all that...
sigh. We would make such good Muslims.
Allahu akbar...
Keith, I have been living in the middle of the Muslim world for the last 12 years and your comments resonated with me. I can see all those dynamics and more at work in the American church. Is it a kinship with Calvinism? Perhaps. I read an old paper by a Reformed Church of America Missionary who thought that their denomination was especially equipped to reach Muslims in this area because of doctrinal similarities! (He said it, not me.)
Strangely enough, some of the best missionaries in the area do happen to be Baptists and Calvinists (even some from Piper's church!) I don't know what that says, but they do seem to be motivated by something beyond 'results'. They have a stick-to-it mentality and zeal that I find puzzling in view of their doctrines.
I think some of the comments here have been a little hard on Southern Baptists. It's a big group that has wide variety--many congregations are functionally Wesleyan. It seems a little unfair to hammer them too much. I see much much stronger comparisons to Reformed groups, especially conservative ones like the PCA (although not exclusively).
But even in those groups I don't see problems with emphasizing one person of the Trinity. What I have seen though, is treatment of "Trinity" as if he were one person, even addressing "Trinity" in prayer. By compressing the Trinity into one, they end up with a functional equivalent to Islam's one god.
I think we're seeing revamp of old Calvinist/Covenantal theology blending with high national ideals. Isn't America the 'chosen'? Shouldn't we destroy all 'infidels'? Politicans and conservative reformed Christians won't speak like that, but that's what lies behind their speech and actions!
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